331 MPH?

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 10/30/2020 at 15:59 • Filed to: None

0

58

So this is kind of TL/DR, but I find it very interesting. To me, the idea of a “production” automobile going over 300 MPH is mind boggling. But what I did look for in the story were the maths, and they seem to sum up to theoretically possible , as this car us supposedly capable of 1,750 HP on E85 fuel. Seems like to go really fast, you need really  much power.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

facw > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 16:01

1

Air friction being non-linear with speed, it takes a lot of power to get up that fast.

facw > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 16:03

3

In any event, have a 357mph TGV:

It had 26,300HP...

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 16:07

2

HP loss due to drag is something like Cd (drag coefficient) x F (frontal area of vehicle) x V^2 (speed squared).

You need exponentially more power to go faster!

My bird IS the word > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 16:13

1

To what end, is the real question. I find myself bored with these insane hp/ trq figures, and more interested in price. 400hp is plenty for me.

ranwhenparked > facw 10/30/2020 at 16:14

7

And here’s one SS United States, it required 241,000 hp to get to 44mph.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 16:15

3

Boats are inherently awful - water is incompressible, so they have to either plow or plane - push the water out of the way or find a way to get up on top of it and minimize contact. And big ships like that don’t plane easily (or at all, really).

I still love that thing, though, and wish I’d gotten to do more with it when I worked at Gibbs & Cox.  

RallyWrench > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 16:17

3

Aptly named. Lots of power, fat and slow. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > My bird IS the word 10/30/2020 at 16:20

2

I’d say, in order of most to least probable answers;  compensation for smol pp, bragging rights, F you money, and because it’s an interesting engineering problem to tackle.

But I do agree that I’m way more interested in an affordable fun car with a reasonable amount of power. 

My bird IS the word > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 16:25

0

Right now my “dream” is a 180hp caterham seven 360r. Now, power to weight, but the main point is that it is so cut down that it would be fun even at the speed limit. Bottom end torque is also way better and more fun than a high revving car . Yo u get all that for less than a new corvette.

facw > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 16:25

0

But imagine how silly it would look if you scaled something like this up to ocean liner size:

And of course even then it wouldn’t be able to hit anywhere near 300mph, for that, you need a flying boat (and apparently flying is considered cheating when you are trying to set land speed records) .

ranwhenparked > RallyWrench 10/30/2020 at 16:28

1

That's actually insanely fast

Snuze: Needs another Swede > RallyWrench 10/30/2020 at 16:29

4

Actually she’s extremely fast by ocean liner standards. She is still the Blue Riband record holder for fastest average speed on trans-atlantic crossing for a commercial vessel , in both the east and west bound directions. She made and average of 34.5 knots westbound and 35.6 knots eastbound, a full 4 knots faster in each direction than the next fastest vessel (the Queen Mary).

The only other thing on the water that approaches or eclipse these sustained speeds are custom build racing yachts competing for the Virgin Atlantic Challenge and Columbus Atlantic trophies. Now your talking vessels like the Virgin Challenger, Gentry Eagle, and (my favorite) Destriero. These vessels can see upwards of 54 knots average .

RallyWrench > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 16:33

0

For a boat, yes. But in terms of speed for power, no. Just tryin’ to make a joke. 

RallyWrench > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 16:33

0

For a boat, yes. Just trying to make a cheap joke. 

Xanadu603 > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 16:35

1

I remember Top Gear going on about the V eyron and how at those speeds the air is a,  “ treacle”

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 16:35

7

Yes, you do. You need all of the powers. 

ranwhenparked > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 16:37

0

Wow, that’s pretty cool that you worked at Gibbs & Cox. Have they had much in the way of continued involvement with the ship, beyond maybe selling copies of the blueprints to whatever underfunded startup was trying to rebuild it at the moment?

Was just making the comparison that hp/speed ratios aren’t translatable across different vehicle types, a lightweight, aerodynamic sports car with 1 person inside is going to need way less power than a ship, or plane, or train to get up to speed.

Beefchips > My bird IS the word 10/30/2020 at 16:39

1

I think things like this are exciting cause they’re more about exploring the limits of human imagination and ingenuity. After all, why climb Everest? Why try to win the Stanley cup? Why paint a masterpiece or send a robot probe to a comet? Because we can. 

BigBlock440 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 16:40

1

All that effort and they couldn’t even get an accurate air density? Pahrump is at 5,502 feet elevation, not sea level, where air is thinner, and Las Vegas is 2000', not sure what section of the road is, but a good bit above 0'. It was also 85 degrees in Pahrump the day they ran, Vegas was 91, not 70 like their air density calculation. Air density should be 25% less.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 16:42

2

It’s that whole V squared thing. You need laughably small amounts of power to run 60 but exponential growth bites you in the ass in a hurry.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > My bird IS the word 10/30/2020 at 16:43

1

I used to ride a liter bike - 165 HP that only had to move 600 lbs (including rider... this was when I was a bi t lighter). So I get the power:weight thing. It’s fun! And the Caterham sounds like a blast. Ever considered building a Se7en clone?

For me, I’d be happy stuffing a moderately powered (~350HP) V8 into my janky Volvo wagon. 

Future next gen S2000 owner > facw 10/30/2020 at 16:43

1

By silly you mean awesome!

My bird IS the word > Beefchips 10/30/2020 at 16:44

0

Idk. When I was a kid I used to idolize hypercars. Now that I'm adult, struggling just to get something that can put wind through my hair, they become decidedly less attractive. I guess that's what class jealousy feels like.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 16:46

0

That’s as fast as my 18'er. I can just crest 35 knots(~40mph) when alone and light on fuel at altitude.

That’s moving.

Out, but with a W - has found the answer > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 16:46

2

Valkyrie?

ttyymmnn > Out, but with a W - has found the answer 10/30/2020 at 16:48

1

Yup. The “six pack.”

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 16:55

0

It’s funny you say that, I actua lly scanned a lot of old blueprints. And it wasn’t an underfunded startup, it was Crystal Cruise Lines. They wanted to buy it, refurb and upfit it, and turn it into an exclusive luxury ocean liner. They backed out 6 months later, it was going to be way too expensive to convert it to a modern powertrain and bring it up to current standards. That was back in 2016, I left the company a year later.

And you’re absolutely right, vehicle usage dictates performance requirements, and that in turn dictates required power. I took a few flying lessons years ago and c om ing into it  one of the things that amazed me was that small planes, like Cessna 172s, only have about 15 0 HP (less than my car at the time). If you don’t have a lot of weight, and don’t want to go fast, you don’t need much power at all.

ranwhenparked > facw 10/30/2020 at 16:56

1

The basic concept for the Independence-class littoral combat ships allegedly originated as a design study at Austal Shipyards in Australia for a ultra high speed luxury cruise ship. I’m not really sure what the market for that would have been, considering the high fuel consumption and low passenger capacity.

I guess you could use something like that to evade American taxes and wages by operating under a foreign flag in Hawaii, speed down to Fanning Island in Kiribati, and back up to Hawaii without losing much time, but the actual savings vs just paying your crew a living wage on a US flag ship would likely be negligible to nonexistent.

My bird IS the word > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 16:58

1

Ive looked at the lower cost options. Visually they don’t really appeal to me, but I have a legit strategy to get a seven in a few years. Just gotta crunch save. Im a big fan of that class of car though, like the M organ/3wheeler and the A tom. Shame that neither have that little splash of practicality that really sells it for me. Hell, shame I don’t like the proportions on the L ocost.

V8s are king. The rest is just smack talk. My lazy 5500 rpm redline 310 hp dinosaur is the most fun I’ve driven. Although that’s only because I didn’t really get to play with the R usty W allace stock car ;). You dont really even look at the speedo when you get thrown that far back in the seat...

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/30/2020 at 17:00

1

Yeah, and I think you’re 18'er is a bit lighter, by about 46,000 tons, give or take. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 17:01

1

They didn’t adjust for the correct air density at altitude. IIRC it’s around 670-690 mm Hg at 6000 feet.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 17:06

0

Independence-class littoral combat ships

Boo! Hiss!!! (to be fair the whole LCS program is hot garbage)

The Freedom Class was based on the Destriero high speed yacht that was built by Fincantierri Marine for Aga Khan. I know the designers, as well. Gibbs designed freedom class, and Fincantierri- Marinette Marine built them.

I also worked on the Puerto Rico/Guam ships - they were high speed catamaran super ferries built by Austal USA for a company in Hawaii that went under before they could take delivery. The Navy bought them cheap and we did a bunch of refit work on them.

ranwhenparked > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 17:08

1

I do remember hearing about that, Crystal were the last ones to ever even half seriously consider reactivating it, they even released some renderings of what it would have looked like after.

About 10-15 years earlier, I was in the crowd when the president of NCL announced their plans for the ship and went over their proposal in detail, that was maybe weeks after they closed on the purchase. At  the time that seemed like a pretty sure thing, since they still had SS Norway and had also just bought SS Independence, they seemed more willing than most to invest in older hulls.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > facw 10/30/2020 at 17:10

1

I wonder if you could get up to 100... that seems difficult, but not impossible.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > My bird IS the word 10/30/2020 at 17:16

1

My wagon project is going to take me a couple years to finish, I think. But I’m going to make it nice, it will probably be a “forever” car for me.

After that, well, I have a really bonkers plan to build something akin to a 60's F1 car (I know there are already some kits out there for this sort of thing). But I want to get some important engineering and aesthetic details right, not just “tube frame with an LS-1" that kind of looks like one.

ranwhenparked > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 17:18

0

I’ve always thought there was a market potential for a few high speed ferry corridors within the US, or between the US and adjacent places, but it doesn't seem to have ever really worked out or attracted much interest. I had no idea the Freedoms originated as a civilian design also, I get the feeling that the Navy really didn't know what the hell they wanted the LCSs to be or do, or really want to spend enough on them.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 17:18

0

That’s awesome that you were there. It’s a shame NCL didn’t pull it off. I think the Conservancy is back to working with developers to moor the thing at a city and turn it into a mixed usage space. I guess it’s better than turning her into razor blades or a reef.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 17:18

0

I’ve wondered about that - if the boat/ship were wider, it’d give more surface area along the bottom, and in turn, more area for hydro foils. But given that weight isn’t generally a concern in their construction, it might be hard to get it to lift out of the water regardless.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 17:25

0

The Navy, like the rest of the US military, is always one war behind. The LCS program was the result of both the 90's “Peace Dividend” and the early 2000's GWOT. Everyone figured Russia had rolled over, China was never going to catch up, and the only conflicts we’d ever have to worry about were regional threats against third world nations and non-state actors. Blue water navies weren’t necessary (at least not at Cold War levels) so the Navy could get by with simple, cheap  vessels because they only ever had to track down pirates with AKs, and maybe an RPG or two. There would be no more open water slug fests.

And you know, they almost got it right in my opinion, except for the 45+ knot requirement. What is that good for? It’s not fast enough to catch a real speed boat, and too slow to out run a missile or torpedo. It just seems like a good way to waste fuel. When you need speed, you use your embarked air assets or carry a Mk5 or high speed RHIB or something.

My bird IS the word > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 17:27

1

Best of luck. The fact you are building a forever car says to me that you are on the right path.

Any sort of track monster seems awesome to me, I just don’t anticipate being anywhere close to a track for some time, so they remain somewhat out of my reach.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > BaconSandwich is tasty. 10/30/2020 at 17:31

1

LCS is 3700 tons and it semi-planes. I don’t know what the heaviest hydrofoil is, but I’m sure there’s a few in at least the 1000 ton region.

Believe it or not, weight is actually a concern for ships, just not to the extreme degree like race cars or aircraft. Some weight is actually desirable, too much, or too little can both have bad consequences. Balance is also really important, weight needs to be properly distributed otherwise a wave you could roll the ship over.

ClassicDatsunDebate > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 18:01

0

P ower to speed is a cubic relationship so 10% more speed = 33% more power.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Xanadu603 10/30/2020 at 18:07

0

Top Gear are knobs.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 18:08

1

Long time, no Oppo, Chief. How are you doing?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > My bird IS the word 10/30/2020 at 18:08

0

I drove a Tesla once with 600 hp.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 10/30/2020 at 18:09

0

That plane. So dramatic looking, such a flop.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > BigBlock440 10/30/2020 at 18:11

0

I am going to save time and take your word for it. Seems like air density would make the engine run better if it were denser, but provide more drag at the same time. Turbo would help, no? (I think this car is bi-turbo...)

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ClassicDatsunDebate 10/30/2020 at 18:14

1

I know. Thats why I said difficult but not impossible. It also really depends on what size vessel you’re trying to do this with. A few tons, definitely, a few thousand tons... uhhhh, maybe ?

My bird IS the word > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 18:15

0

Did it feel soulless? I really, really want to like electric but I have zero exposure currently.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 18:16

0

I’ve been around, replying and such. I’m sorry I turned this into a boat thread. I j ust haven’t done anything interesting enough to make my own posts about, at least not anything I can talk about on here. I spent 24 days in the Bahamas testing various things for my employer. And now I’m playing catch up at home on chores and such, got a mid term this week for my graduate class, etc. Hopefully things will settle down in a week or two, and then I can get back to posting about janky Volvos.

How have you been doing?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > My bird IS the word 10/30/2020 at 18:24

1

My nephews 2nd-gen Prius was soulless. The Tesla, in this case a Model S P85, I wouldn’t call soulless. But other than having wicked acceleration, it didn’t make much of an impression.

ranwhenparked > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 18:26

1

We’ll see, every use they’ve proposed for it - convention center, entertainment venue, hotel, restaurants/bars/nightclubs, etc are all industries that are either currently banned or allowed to operate only with substantial restrictions, not exactly a great pitch for potential investors. The West Coast counterpart, Queen Mary, has been totally shut down for most of the year, and her operator has already declared bankruptcy. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > My bird IS the word 10/30/2020 at 18:26

0

Oh, I dont race or anything. All I really want to do is try to register it and drive it to Cars n  Coffee. So Im also not trying to make a legit 500-550 HP build, probably closer to 300 with the engine I want to use and some de-tuning.  But in a 1500lbs car that will be plenty nuts. 

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 18:27

0

I thought the boat stuff was exceedingly interesting. That’s why I oppo.

Things are good. We have a grandson now, born July 21st, and Missus and I are going to fly to see him in two weeks. Into the maw of the beast, as it were, as he is in Utah... Spending days in my shed doing Zoom school, and I’m folding again. Soon, it’ll be time to ramp up enthusiasm for that as the hot weather is gone and folks can crank up their GPU space heaters. I’m riding my bicycle in the mornings and enjoying that very much. Things are going well.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > ranwhenparked 10/30/2020 at 18:27

0

Yeah, this is a tough year for that business. I guess we’ll just have to wait and s ee what happens.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Snuze: Needs another Swede 10/30/2020 at 18:33

1

Although it's harder to roll an outrigger. 

BigBlock440 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 10/30/2020 at 21:20

0

Air density does help with power, but the forced induction compensates for it. Hot air also has less oxygen, by way of being less dense. A t those speeds though , air resistance is such a big factor. And yes, a NA car will lose power, about 3% per 1k feet, but a turbo car can compensate. A computer controlled turbo car is even better, since it can adjust the waste gate to keep a more consistent boost level.

nerd_racing > Beefchips 10/31/2020 at 07:22

0

To get laid. That is and has always been the main driver for human society.